|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 20, 2017 18:04:18 GMT
you are welcome to post on this page i will be posting my articles on tips to stand out as indie game developers this has to do with your overall approach to the game and how to approach it like a professional. I truly believe that Invector template can be used to create Tripple A style titles and AA styles titles. Unity is really a powerful engine if used to maximum capacity but unity itself is not the brain, You are the brain and i truly believe that one person can make a final fantasy,witcher 3 ,watchdogs 2 using invector and unity. the following standards have been my observations on most indie developers.
1- We know we are competing with big budget tripple A game companies who are using the true THird Person camera format and FPS format so the normal has been go for what they dont offer . most of indie devs end up creating top down or isometric games because they are afraid of competition. 2. We always hear that no one person can make high quality AAA graphics on assets in their game with all beauty of AAA games but is that so? 3. Because of the depth in AAA game cut-scenes indie game devs have been not so keen creating high quality and lengthy cut scenes. yes actors are needed for voice overs but is that so? 4. " My game is indie so it really doesn't have to be super complex" this perception is killing creativity. 5. lastly some of us dont know the current state and the accesibility of 3d tools in 2017 which all cater for the indie.
invector is a AAA game template no doubt. Now we all shouldnt be afraid to try out the best of our own creative ideas to the fullest.
N.b - nothing wrong with top-down,2.5d or isometric format games its just that it has been the norm for indie games
now a special point "Yes its requires hard work and dedication to make AAA quality games"
now below are a view inspirations on what one person can do.
lost souls aside video game created by one person Bing Yang.
warriors dream short movie made by one person
animation cut scene made by one person
Kings of Kungfu made by one person in Unity 3d( what more unity 2017)
warstorm game made by one person
white city a never finished but awesome game from a single person
|
|
kano
Junior vMember
Posts: 40
|
Post by kano on Jul 20, 2017 18:20:07 GMT
I no like Watch Dogs but I get your point. However, I think big open-world is maybe not impossible in terms of skills of one person, but rather it take too much time. All the time you spend making one area of a city in GTA-style game, you could be almost done making entire "normal" size game, and work on improving aspects of gameplay and fine-tuning to make it fun and polished.
Basically what I said is it not impossible (skill-wise), but it just takes too many years for one person so I don't think it will ever be done. I would love to be proven wrong though!
Edit: Also: money Actors, motion capture equipment / studios etc etc.
|
|
|
Post by jrackley on Jul 20, 2017 18:27:45 GMT
I really like your post but I personally believe that probably the biggest drawback for any Indie Developer is money. There is absolutely no way around the fact that if you want to make a AAA quality game then you have to be able to spend a rather decent amount of money to achieve that goal, and most Indie Developers do not realize that when they start to make a game.
There is no way around it, whether you buy assets to use and create your own ideas from them, or you hire an artist to create them, whether you create your own audio or hire someone, whether you do your own animations or hire someone etc... I think you see my point no matter i it is equipment or labor cost you will have to spend a good amount if you want good quality. I feel though you are very spot on that yes it can be done for sure, it just takes planning and A LOT of it,lol
We started out thinking it would be pretty straight forward and would only take a few months. Well we are a year and a half into the project, started over and rebuilt 4-5 times to get things the way we wanted them, and spent upwards of $14,000 dollars so far. But as long as you have patience and do things one step at a time and are not afraid to say "this isn't working, scrap it and redo it" you will succeed.
#3 is where we struggle, while I feel that we make some pretty decent cutscenes for only being the 3 of us with no mocap at the moment, I feel that we need the mocap suit to get the true AAA feel out of them, and that leads back to money,LOL!
So to sum it up can it be done? The answer is YES, but be ready for a journey and the thrill of learning things you never imagined you would have to learn. And take it from us DO NOT start MASSIVE, we did this and that is why it takes so long, we are in the process of breaking everything into stages now.
If you have an idea do not give up on it research, plan and build!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 19:38:13 GMT
How do you achieve AAA lighting in Unity? I think that's another great achievement, if its possible.
|
|
|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 20, 2017 20:49:17 GMT
its achievable if u learn the global illumination system and how to use the lighting settings from the unity window
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 20:56:24 GMT
Yeah I still need to figure that out lol, for some reason I can't get good lighting, I think I need to wait out the baking on lighting.
|
|
|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 20, 2017 21:03:59 GMT
I really like your post but I personally believe that probably the biggest drawback for any Indie Developer is money. There is absolutely no way around the fact that if you want to make a AAA quality game then you have to be able to spend a rather decent amount of money to achieve that goal, and most Indie Developers do not realize that when they start to make a game. There is no way around it, whether you buy assets to use and create your own ideas from them, or you hire an artist to create them, whether you create your own audio or hire someone, whether you do your own animations or hire someone etc... I think you see my point no matter i it is equipment or labor cost you will have to spend a good amount if you want good quality. I feel though you are very spot on that yes it can be done for sure, it just takes planning and A LOT of it,lol We started out thinking it would be pretty straight forward and would only take a few months. Well we are a year and a half into the project, started over and rebuilt 4-5 times to get things the way we wanted them, and spent upwards of $14,000 dollars so far. But as long as you have patience and do things one step at a time and are not afraid to say "this isn't working, scrap it and redo it" you will succeed. #3 is where we struggle, while I feel that we make some pretty decent cutscenes for only being the 3 of us with no mocap at the moment, I feel that we need the mocap suit to get the true AAA feel out of them, and that leads back to money,LOL! So to sum it up can it be done? The answer is YES, but be ready for a journey and the thrill of learning things you never imagined you would have to learn. And take it from us DO NOT start MASSIVE, we did this and that is why it takes so long, we are in the process of breaking everything into stages now. If you have an idea do not give up on it research, plan and build! well said , but you know there is nothing wrong in trying the traditional animation route of creating them straight from video references those videos where not mocap animations for example the blender video and a warrior's dream. below is the making of a warrior's dream no mocap just a any 3d application like maya,cinema 4d,iclone or houdini this guy did all of it on a laptop this is a cg nominated video
|
|
|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 20, 2017 21:04:49 GMT
you know there is nothing wrong in trying the traditional animation route of creating them straight from video references those videos where not mocap animations for example the blender video and a warrior's dream.
below is the making of a warrior's dream no mocap just a any 3d application like maya,cinema 4d,iclone or houdini
this guy did all of it on a laptop this is a cg nominated video
|
|
|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 20, 2017 21:11:01 GMT
Yeah I still need to figure that out lol, for some reason I can't get good lighting, I think I need to wait out the baking on lighting. ever heard of post processing, i think that may help you also. search on youtube unity postproccessing
|
|
|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 20, 2017 21:26:37 GMT
Another important not for indie game developers invest in procedural systems these cut off your dev time making the time short. things like Invector obviously
-adventure creator -probuilder -dungeon creator -any pbr shader -Gaia or map magic or terrain composer u can build a big city in days -cityscpape build a city in minutes Side fx Houdini though this one is expensive it is worth the money there is a lot u can do in just a hour -octave 3d -cinemachine and timeline obviously or skele . cinema director -Population systems there are about three systems on asset store though the pricing is a bit expensive with one at 100 dollars phew but i there is one at 35 dollars or so if i am not mistaken. -lipsync pro or salsa for now i can say the list is endless though i know that money is the biggest problem in quality design
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 21:27:48 GMT
Yeah I have heard of post processing, I nerf to play around more with that, and I think the progressive lightmapper as well :P thanks!!! :D
|
|
|
Post by Invector on Jul 21, 2017 14:51:15 GMT
thread moved to Game Development, Design & Ideas
|
|
|
Post by shadex on Jul 29, 2017 5:59:36 GMT
1- We know we are competing with big budget tripple A game companies who are using the true THird Person camera format and FPS format so the normal has been go for what they dont offer . most of indie devs end up creating top down or isometric games because they are afraid of competition. 2. We always hear that no one person can make high quality AAA graphics on assets in their game with all beauty of AAA games but is that so? 3. Because of the depth in AAA game cut-scenes indie game devs have been not so keen creating high quality and lengthy cut scenes. yes actors are needed for voice overs but is that so? 4. " My game is indie so it really doesn't have to be super complex" this perception is killing creativity. 5. lastly some of us dont know the current state and the accesibility of 3d tools in 2017 which all cater for the indie. 1) We are not directly competing. Since we don't have to compete against store shelves, and have access to publishers like steam or humble games, we do not need to compete on an all or nothing release. Chances are, if the game is good, during a dry month, we can still advertise our game. There are many many successful games that are 3rd or 1st person made by indie dev's. 2) You hear that because often people come into game devolpment with the idea that these are easy to create. They are hard to create, but hardly impossible. The forest, Empyrion, banished, subnautica, The problem is that people no longer equate good graphics to good game. Things like starbound, FTL, Minecraft showed that many people prefer game play over graphics. And to be honest, 90% of what people think are graphic's, is just lighting and camera effects. 3) I don't have enough experience creating cut scene's. I am sure though, that there is some $60 program to learn to do that. As an indie developer my biggest problem is not what can I do, it's what do i need and what do i focus on. 4) Define complex. This War of Mine was emotionally complex, Starbound is complex with the amount of procedural stuff you can run into. Plantary explorers has extreamly complex systems. As much as i love modern warfare 2, it was not complex. 5) There coming out with photoscan tech that will make photo realistic models with make human. 3d art tools are there. We have cheap access to everything a AAA studio has. In fact Hearthstone was made with playmaker. We simply do not have the body's. While you can't expect to make a "Skyrim" by yourself in the same amount of time bethseda made it, You can make a Skyrim game in a year or two. It just requires a differnt workflow, one thats streamlined for a single person or small group. Perfect example is how we add a new weapon in Invector's TPC. It takes us 5 minutes to make one from a model. There are modular weapons packs. In a dark souls interview, they stated that it took about a week for a guy who's sole job was weapons, to implement a new one for testing. the problem that plaques the Indy dev is that most people will sacrifice quality for speed all the time. Thats why many people use stylized graphics or below par graphic's that you can buy on the cheap. I agree that most of the indie dev's or hobbiest's view things like you stated. Whenever i asked the other side, the pro's always envy the indie's, because many company's can not afford to buy assets, or take short cuts. Above all else, they know one thing. If they make a hit they don't lose there job. If an indie makes a hit, they can pretty much retire.
|
|
|
Post by G 4 greatness on Jul 29, 2017 11:50:32 GMT
1- We know we are competing with big budget tripple A game companies who are using the true THird Person camera format and FPS format so the normal has been go for what they dont offer . most of indie devs end up creating top down or isometric games because they are afraid of competition. 2. We always hear that no one person can make high quality AAA graphics on assets in their game with all beauty of AAA games but is that so? 3. Because of the depth in AAA game cut-scenes indie game devs have been not so keen creating high quality and lengthy cut scenes. yes actors are needed for voice overs but is that so? 4. " My game is indie so it really doesn't have to be super complex" this perception is killing creativity. 5. lastly some of us dont know the current state and the accesibility of 3d tools in 2017 which all cater for the indie. 1) We are not directly competing. Since we don't have to compete against store shelves, and have access to publishers like steam or humble games, we do not need to compete on an all or nothing release. Chances are, if the game is good, during a dry month, we can still advertise our game. There are many many successful games that are 3rd or 1st person made by indie dev's. 2) You hear that because often people come into game devolpment with the idea that these are easy to create. They are hard to create, but hardly impossible. The forest, Empyrion, banished, subnautica, The problem is that people no longer equate good graphics to good game. Things like starbound, FTL, Minecraft showed that many people prefer game play over graphics. And to be honest, 90% of what people think are graphic's, is just lighting and camera effects. 3) I don't have enough experience creating cut scene's. I am sure though, that there is some $60 program to learn to do that. As an indie developer my biggest problem is not what can I do, it's what do i need and what do i focus on. 4) Define complex. This War of Mine was emotionally complex, Starbound is complex with the amount of procedural stuff you can run into. Plantary explorers has extreamly complex systems. As much as i love modern warfare 2, it was not complex. 5) There coming out with photoscan tech that will make photo realistic models with make human. 3d art tools are there. We have cheap access to everything a AAA studio has. In fact Hearthstone was made with playmaker. We simply do not have the body's. While you can't expect to make a "Skyrim" by yourself in the same amount of time bethseda made it, You can make a Skyrim game in a year or two. It just requires a differnt workflow, one thats streamlined for a single person or small group. Perfect example is how we add a new weapon in Invector's TPC. It takes us 5 minutes to make one from a model. There are modular weapons packs. In a dark souls interview, they stated that it took about a week for a guy who's sole job was weapons, to implement a new one for testing. the problem that plaques the Indy dev is that most people will sacrifice quality for speed all the time. Thats why many people use stylized graphics or below par graphic's that you can buy on the cheap. I agree that most of the indie dev's or hobbiest's view things like you stated. Whenever i asked the other side, the pro's always envy the indie's, because many company's can not afford to buy assets, or take short cuts. Above all else, they know one thing. If they make a hit they don't lose there job. If an indie makes a hit, they can pretty much retire. Great viewpoint what I am against are preconceived notions like the ones i had when i started game development.like i useed to say animation is hard I need mocap animation but when actually found that I can learn to animate faster after doing research.We all do this when we start like asking questions to whether it's possible to create a AAA quality game but for me most of the forum's and articles where pointing out that its nearly impossible. But then I changed my strategy I searched games made by one person. Movies made by one person. Apps made by one person it's amazing I found super quality products made by a single person. And I said this whole impossibility thing is discouraging creative ideas. companies are aware of the rise of the indie and trust me being indie can very much rewarding. Indie devs are generally hardworking that alone is a huge milestone.
|
|
|
Post by shadex on Jul 29, 2017 17:57:00 GMT
1) We are not directly competing. Since we don't have to compete against store shelves, and have access to publishers like steam or humble games, we do not need to compete on an all or nothing release. Chances are, if the game is good, during a dry month, we can still advertise our game. There are many many successful games that are 3rd or 1st person made by indie dev's. 2) You hear that because often people come into game devolpment with the idea that these are easy to create. They are hard to create, but hardly impossible. The forest, Empyrion, banished, subnautica, The problem is that people no longer equate good graphics to good game. Things like starbound, FTL, Minecraft showed that many people prefer game play over graphics. And to be honest, 90% of what people think are graphic's, is just lighting and camera effects. 3) I don't have enough experience creating cut scene's. I am sure though, that there is some $60 program to learn to do that. As an indie developer my biggest problem is not what can I do, it's what do i need and what do i focus on. 4) Define complex. This War of Mine was emotionally complex, Starbound is complex with the amount of procedural stuff you can run into. Plantary explorers has extreamly complex systems. As much as i love modern warfare 2, it was not complex. 5) There coming out with photoscan tech that will make photo realistic models with make human. 3d art tools are there. We have cheap access to everything a AAA studio has. In fact Hearthstone was made with playmaker. We simply do not have the body's. While you can't expect to make a "Skyrim" by yourself in the same amount of time bethseda made it, You can make a Skyrim game in a year or two. It just requires a differnt workflow, one thats streamlined for a single person or small group. Perfect example is how we add a new weapon in Invector's TPC. It takes us 5 minutes to make one from a model. There are modular weapons packs. In a dark souls interview, they stated that it took about a week for a guy who's sole job was weapons, to implement a new one for testing. the problem that plaques the Indy dev is that most people will sacrifice quality for speed all the time. Thats why many people use stylized graphics or below par graphic's that you can buy on the cheap. I agree that most of the indie dev's or hobbiest's view things like you stated. Whenever i asked the other side, the pro's always envy the indie's, because many company's can not afford to buy assets, or take short cuts. Above all else, they know one thing. If they make a hit they don't lose there job. If an indie makes a hit, they can pretty much retire. Great viewpoint what I am against are preconceived notions like the ones i had when i started game development.like i useed to say animation is hard I need mocap animation but when actually found that I can learn to animate faster after doing research.We all do this when we start like asking questions to whether it's possible to create a AAA quality game but for me most of the forum's and articles where pointing out that its nearly impossible. But then I changed my strategy I searched games made by one person. Movies made by one person. Apps made by one person it's amazing I found super quality products made by a single person. And I said this whole impossibility thing is discouraging creative ideas. companies are aware of the rise of the indie and trust me being indie can very much rewarding. Indie devs are generally hardworking that alone is a huge milestone. The problem is you keep running into person after person who comes in with no expierence using unity, can't code, and wants to create a Skyrim in a year. I feel those articles are to answer those people. I get it, and i don't disagree with that. It's not ment for people who have either put in the time, or have the time to put in. The arguement for not being able to make AAA games is always "Do you think your better then 30 guy's, a 10 mil budget and library's of assets?" It's feels like a fair question, but it gets less true the more expierence you have. If you try to do what a big company would do, then you would hand create all the 3d assets, art, terrains, models, animations, etc. This is where quality gets sacraficed. I can procedurally generate that terrain with Gaia, and some asset store assets. Take a wild guess how long breath of the wild's terrain took? how many artists where working on it? you could Gaia that entire thing up in a month, with all locations and prefabs using procedural genreation. But, stuff will be misaligned, key items may be below the terrain, it may overdraw your grass, etc. They are 2 distinct methods. One requires raw talent, and the other requires the ability to adapt anything to the situation. This is why games like dungeon defenders 1-2 get made. The indie dev's adapted some stylized assets with low poly's to their game. Subnautica used a procedural terrain generator. The other part of this is, and IMHO the one thing that allows an indie dev to compete is design. If you design your game to rely on, or have the fun being a part that is highly optimized in the work flow, then you can create a game that feels as full as a AAA release. Which has more content? Starbound or Skyrim? Of course the draw back is you feel like each "new" thing is a minor variation of the last, but you do infinite "new" things to do. The last point i want to make is that we don't often have deadlines. This is good and bad, but if you had 5 years to make a new modern warfare, most single indie dev's with expierence would be able to, even with modern graphics. And for the record unity's graphic's capability isn't crap, it's AAA quality for most things. However things like stock terrain sucks. So when you put in a photo realistic rock, even with perfect lighting next to grass that has no shadows or albado refraction it makes everything look like 2 gen's ago. You do HAVE to buy or make your own assets for a few limitations. That and i've only seen a handful of games from unity that uses lighting properly. Unreal's graphic's look better, because of the default settings for lighting is better, and default shaders look better. Most of the games that do all of these often never get released because 1 guy gets burned out alone, or they completely ignore any type of marketing, social media, etc. Big companies can just dump a few hundred thousand or mil in advertising. /Rant
|
|